Monday, September 01, 2008
J.Krishnamurti : Death is impermanence and possessiveness is hoping for permanence.Happiness is a side-effect, not an end in itself.
No, the brain is the entire centre of desire, feeling, anxiety, pain, loneliness. The consciousness is all that, the beliefs, fears, sorrow, loneliness, anxiety, the whole….
: …. The psychological being.
K : Yes, the psychological structure, confusion. That is the brain. And love is not part of the brain because it is something outside that.
I know. I use that word but, you see, meditation is a very complex business. In meditation there is no meditator at all.
K : That’s all. When you are really looking at something there is the absence of the self.
From what I have discussed with people, Nirvana apparently means a state in which the self is not. The self in the sense of all the turmoil. Come to that point, don’t discuss what Nirvana is you will find out.
: No, I am putting it differently. When you are not hearing with the sensory ear, but hearing inwardly, completely, in that state we are absolutely silent. When absolutely silent, then insight may take place. Perception in which there is no division as the ‘me’, the perceiver and the perceived-right? So the whole mechanical process of thinking, with its conflict, comes to an end.
I wouldn’t ask a human being whether he has insight. That, I think, would be a wrong question. But I would ask: does the mechanical process of thinking ever stop? Or is the brain perpetually occupies?
I follow that, sir. What you are saying is: insight is perception or listening without any examination, any analytical process at all.
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DB : If you start with logic, you are starting with your past assumptions that are wrong. You see the difficulty. When you start from insight, you start from something new, a new perception. But if you start from logic, you must start from what you already know, which is always wrong, fundamentally.
So we started out by saying that thought is mechanical. The computer is mechanical. What thought can do the computer can do, up to a certain point. But thought being mechanical, can never capture that which is non-mechanical. And insight is non-mechanical, totally non-mechanical. Now listen to that, don’t argue. You have argued enough now to say thought is mechanical, computers are mechanical; whatever thought can do, up to a certain point the computer can do, it can learn, relearn, adjust, it can do all the kinds of thing that thought can do, based on knowledge and so on. We both agreed to that. David tells me it is perfectly right up to that point. But that doesn’t bring about insight, he tells me. So I say, all right. I don’t say, what am I to do? The moment I say, what am I to do, you are back in the cycle. Right? He says, see that very clearly and don’t move away from that. We have argued about this mechanical process sufficiently. We can go into much more detail and so on but we have got the principle of it. Right? That’s all. Don’t move from there. Don’t say, what is insight? If you don’t move, it’s there. I don’t know if I’ve conveyed this.
K : I would like to discuss that a little. ‘Attending’ means giving all your energy, sensitivity, the whole nervous organism, so that not only your hearing, you eyes, but everything is tremendously alive. In that state of attention there is no centre as the ‘me’ attending. So there is no fear in that. I don’t know if I am making myself clear.
: No, the point is to understand living, the significance of living, not this perpetual battle, struggle, conflict, I must have more, be better, this constant measurement of myself with somebody else – he is famous so I must become famous, he is on television, I am not! This terrible sense of poverty; and in the attempt to be rich there is the burden of fear. I may never get rich because there is somebody much richer.
Yes, You see that’s why one has to inquire, is there a becoming and therefore the ending of becoming is fear.
K : And is there psychological becoming at all? There is a becoming in the world in the sense that one is apprenticed to a master carpenter and you gradually work with him until you become as he is. But that same attitude spills over, or is extended into, the other, the psychological, inner field – I must become something. If I don’t I am lost, I am a failure, I am depressed, look, you have become something, I am nobody.
K : Death is impermanence and possessiveness is hoping for permanence.
So there are two separate entities. The thinker and the object of which you think. Now, what is the thinker?
: To realize that the observer, the thinker, the experience and the observed, the experience are one, are not separate, sir, that means a tremendous, inward, psychological revolution. It means there is no division, there is no conflict. And when you then give attention to the fact, the fact is burnt away. But thought will be kept to plant a tree, to bring that flower into being.
K : No, the ultimate goal, if you can put it that way, is to find that which is completely sacred, totally uncontaminated by thought.
: Of course not, that’s why I said one has to be free of all the illusions that thought has created to see something really sacred which comes about through right meditation.
K : You see, this question is very complex. Putting the house in order means no fear, the understanding of pleasure, the ending of sorrow. From that arise compassion, intelligence, and the process of that we’ll call it process for the moment – is part of meditation and then to find out whether thought can ever stop, which means time has to have a stop. And then out of that comes the great silence, and it is in that silence that one can find that which is sacred.
K : No, when one realize that the observer is the observed, the controller is the controlled, the experiencer is the experience, when one realize it not intellectually, verbally, but actually, profoundly, then that very perception stops it. It’s like seeing danger. If you see danger you move away from it. For example, a human being who is perpetually in conflict may ‘meditate’, he may do all kinds of things but the conflict still goes on; but when he sees the psychological danger, the poison of conflict, then he’ll stop it, there’s an end of it.
You see, then we have to find out what action is. Is there an action that doesn’t create conflict, in which there is no regret, which under all circumstances, whether we live in a poor or an affluent society, is and must always be correct? To find that out one has to go into the question of what our action is now. It is either idealistic action concerned with the future or it is action based on past memories, which is knowledge. Now, is there an action independent of the future, of time? That’s the whole point, isn’t it?
Belief atrophies the brain. If you keep on repeating, repeating, as they do, your brain atrophies.
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