Human Brain, Insight And Computer by j. Krishnamurti

J.Krishnamurti : Death is impermanence and possessiveness is hoping for permanence.Happiness is a side-effect, not an end in itself.

Belief atrophies the brain. If you keep on repeating, repeating, as they do, your brain atrophies.


Dialogues with J.Krishnamurti on Human Brain and Computer & Insight


K:
No, the brain is the entire centre of desire, feeling, anxiety, pain, loneliness. The consciousness is all that, the beliefs, fears, sorrow, loneliness, anxiety, the whole….

DB : …. The psychological being.

K : Yes, the psychological structure, confusion. That is the brain. And love is not part of the brain because it is something outside that.

I know. I use that word but, you see, meditation is a very complex business. In meditation there is no meditator at all.

K : That’s all. When you are really looking at something there is the absence of the self.

From what I have discussed with people, Nirvana apparently means a state in which the self is not. The self in the sense of all the turmoil. Come to that point, don’t discuss what Nirvana is you will find out.
: No, I am putting it differently. When you are not hearing with the sensory ear, but hearing inwardly, completely, in that state we are absolutely silent. When absolutely silent, then insight may take place. Perception in which there is no division as the ‘me’, the perceiver and the perceived-right? So the whole mechanical process of thinking, with its conflict, comes to an end.

I wouldn’t ask a human being whether he has insight. That, I think, would be a wrong question. But I would ask: does the mechanical process of thinking ever stop? Or is the brain perpetually occupies?

I follow that, sir. What you are saying is: insight is perception or listening without any examination, any analytical process at all.


DB : If you start with logic, you are starting with your past assumptions that are wrong. You see the difficulty. When you start from insight, you start from something new, a new perception. But if you start from logic, you must start from what you already know, which is always wrong, fundamentally.
So we started out by saying that thought is mechanical. The computer is mechanical. What thought can do the computer can do, up to a certain point. But thought being mechanical, can never capture that which is non-mechanical. And insight is non-mechanical, totally non-mechanical. Now listen to that, don’t argue. You have argued enough now to say thought is mechanical, computers are mechanical; whatever thought can do, up to a certain point the computer can do, it can learn, relearn, adjust, it can do all the kinds of thing that thought can do, based on knowledge and so on. We both agreed to that. David tells me it is perfectly right up to that point. But that doesn’t bring about insight, he tells me. So I say, all right. I don’t say, what am I to do? The moment I say, what am I to do, you are back in the cycle. Right? He says, see that very clearly and don’t move away from that. We have argued about this mechanical process sufficiently. We can go into much more detail and so on but we have got the principle of it. Right? That’s all. Don’t move from there. Don’t say, what is insight? If you don’t move, it’s there. I don’t know if I’ve conveyed this.

K : I would like to discuss that a little. ‘Attending’ means giving all your energy, sensitivity, the whole nervous organism, so that not only your hearing, you eyes, but everything is tremendously alive. In that state of attention there is no centre as the ‘me’ attending. So there is no fear in that. I don’t know if I am making myself clear.

: No, the point is to understand living, the significance of living, not this perpetual battle, struggle, conflict, I must have more, be better, this constant measurement of myself with somebody else – he is famous so I must become famous, he is on television, I am not! This terrible sense of poverty; and in the attempt to be rich there is the burden of fear. I may never get rich because there is somebody much richer.

Yes, You see that’s why one has to inquire, is there a becoming and therefore the ending of becoming is fear.

K : And is there psychological becoming at all? There is a becoming in the world in the sense that one is apprenticed to a master carpenter and you gradually work with him until you become as he is. But that same attitude spills over, or is extended into, the other, the psychological, inner field – I must become something. If I don’t I am lost, I am a failure, I am depressed, look, you have become something, I am nobody.

K : Death is impermanence and possessiveness is hoping for permanence.
So there are two separate entities. The thinker and the object of which you think. Now, what is the thinker?

: To realize that the observer, the thinker, the experience and the observed, the experience are one, are not separate, sir, that means a tremendous, inward, psychological revolution. It means there is no division, there is no conflict. And when you then give attention to the fact, the fact is burnt away. But thought will be kept to plant a tree, to bring that flower into being.

K : No, the ultimate goal, if you can put it that way, is to find that which is completely sacred, totally uncontaminated by thought.

: Of course not, that’s why I said one has to be free of all the illusions that thought has created to see something really sacred which comes about through right meditation.


K : You see, this question is very complex. Putting the house in order means no fear, the understanding of pleasure, the ending of sorrow. From that arise compassion, intelligence, and the process of that we’ll call it process for the moment – is part of meditation and then to find out whether thought can ever stop, which means time has to have a stop. And then out of that comes the great silence, and it is in that silence that one can find that which is sacred.

K : No, when one realize that the observer is the observed, the controller is the controlled, the experiencer is the experience, when one realize it not intellectually, verbally, but actually, profoundly, then that very perception stops it. It’s like seeing danger. If you see danger you move away from it. For example, a human being who is perpetually in conflict may ‘meditate’, he may do all kinds of things but the conflict still goes on; but when he sees the psychological danger, the poison of conflict, then he’ll stop it, there’s an end of it.
You see, then we have to find out what action is. Is there an action that doesn’t create conflict, in which there is no regret, which under all circumstances, whether we live in a poor or an affluent society, is and must always be correct? To find that out one has to go into the question of what our action is now. It is either idealistic action concerned with the future or it is action based on past memories, which is knowledge. Now, is there an action independent of the future, of time? That’s the whole point, isn’t it?

Belief atrophies the brain. If you keep on repeating, repeating, as they do, your brain atrophies.

k :j.krishnamuti. Mystic,philosopher. DB: Dr. David Bohm, swedish physicist.

Is Man Rational

Krishnamurti and Quantum Mechanics

It was krishnamurti who in his teachings talked about observer is observed. This does not mean as an uninitiated may quickly jump to conclude the same as identifying oneself with a physical object. It is about pure observation or choiceness awareness in which self as judge is absent and there is silent witnessing to one's thoughts. We shall see in a little while what exactly is observer is observed and also validate it further in the light of modern-day physics now referred to as Quantum Mechanics. First some concepts in quantum mechanics . As against classical physics known as Newtonian physics today the worldview is different. It is no more an absolute objective world with objects having absolute existence irrespective of observers.Reality is what we make it in our experience through our participation. This is because at the microscopic level subatomic entities are probabilistic existence. They can be either particle or wave depending on observer. The interference of observer by measuring or participative observation a subatomic entity becomes a reality. Till then it is in a state of possibility. According to Heisenberg it is between possibility and reality.

What it means that the physical substantive world as we see it and feel it is possible because we experience it . Reality is our experience. It does not exist outside our experience. Towards this viewpoint physicists conducted various experiments with two main ones being the Double slit experiment and the Schrodinger's cat. These experiments prove that subatomic entity is both a particle as well as wave. It is a potential state . A photon which is the minutest subatomic entity becomes a particle if we try to measure it . It is also a wave if left uninterfered . Thus if there is an observation the observed entity undergoes a change. Reversely if unobserved the behaviour of photon is entirely different. So the question arises whether photon exists independent of us. There goes a very famous zen kaon " there is a thud sound in a forest where there is nobody. Did the sound exists independent of any listener?In fact even we exists in relation to creation around us. We take a break from quantum mechanics here to go back to krishnamurti'steachings. Subsequently we shall connect the dots..
According to krishnamurti observer is observed. In his words" the very thing you observe-the very thing that is being observed undergoes a radical transformation if there is no observer. We don't change fundamentally as human beings because we have divided the observer from the observed. So there is no fundamental change. But there is fundamental change radically and at great depth when the observer is observed. When there is only pure observation. Then that which is being observed undergoes a radical change because there is no naming it,no conclusion about it ,no abstraction, no escape."It is pertinent here to know that observer is an agglomeration of self image put together by thought. It consists of our likes,,dislikes,hatred,jealousies,envy,violence pride etc. When this observer separates itself from it's images it assumes a solid identity. In the process it gives energy to what is being observed such as fear, greed, envy regrets,sorrow etc. but in reality the observer itself is fear etc. So is it possible for the observer to see that it is nothing but the observed and not a separate phenomena? Because if he can see the illusion of fictitious observer then his observation undergo a change. Then there is just choiceless observervation sans observer. It is here a miracle happens. When there is pure observation the things being observed undergo a change. Man's fear or anxiety or jealousy undergo a change. There is no observer to revitalise or energize it. This leads to radical transformation and man experiences real freedom. Since there is no observer there is no conflict between the observer and what he ideally wants to be. There is state of pure existence. Choiceness awareness with no observer to wallow in sorrow or suffering..
Back to quantum mechanics. It says we actualize our reality. An observer creates an observed existence. Without observer the observed entity is a mere potential. It is like a particle as well as a wave. Similarly when we observe as an observer we enhance our fears and negativities. When we observe without the interference of self obsessed observer then the observed traits undergo a change. They dissipate giving rise to choiceless awareness.. Remember if we observe a photon is a particle and if do not it is wavelike. Similarly when observer realizes that he is not separate from the observed there is state of no observer. It is then uninterfered observation coined as choiceless awareness by krishnamurti.. The moment observer steps in the photon becomes particle or in case of man his fears become real. He loses his freedom and becomes a slave to his thoughts. Then anything is possible. Violence or envy can overtake him or he can be in a perennial state of agony. The moment the observer vanishes the brain undergoes a radical change. Then his actions are based on responses to situations and are no more reactions to his past. Like a photon ours fears are potentially ready to vanish if we do not observe as an observer. It is of course easier said than done. But not impossible.